This post on games within games is still in in draft form to make it accessible to my friend Joel, since it includes feedback/suggestions for his table. I will revisit later to clean it up and remove personal references.
Joel,
I wanted to address the general issue rather than make recommendations for your table specifically, since that’s your domain. Why? Because this comes up in one form or another in EVERY group eventually. But time is getting short, so at the risk of being somewhat blunt I’ll summarize. So this is kind of a mix of general concepts and table-specific thoughts/suggestions.
Before I begin: if using a drinking game or casino-style gambling at your table, consider alcohol and gambling can be real-life touchy subjects. There are a few potentially touchy subjects, for example, domestic abuse or kidnapping, but in Wisconsin you’re most likely to encounter alcohol or gambling. Now, then:
How to run games within games.
Given the tendency of PCs to frequent taverns, drinking games are an ever-popular game-within-a-game (GWAG). Other popular GWAGs are arm-wrestling contests, 3-dragon ante, wizard’s chess, duels by steel or magic, archery contests or festival tournaments. These are great fun when used sporadically. They are less fun when repeated week after week, and do not move the story forward. When you use the same GWAG repeatedly, you run the risk of making the GWAG an easy replacement for actual gaming activities.
The first thing is to consider how much time should be spent on the game.
If it’s basically a poker game that runs every session, then it doesn’t really move the plot forward. It’s a red herring- something that seems to move the plot forward, but is actually not relevant to the plot. This is not necessarily bad. Some good uses for a red herring game would be as a warmup activity while people are eating, or to refocus if people are losing it.
Sometimes the game is important to the plot. If it’s an important plot theme for 1 character, then it’s only moving the plot forward for 1 character. 4 of 5 characters = 20% useful time, 80% not useful. That is, if it’s the same thing week after week. And I don’t mean minor variations, like 1 week it’s whiskey instead of ale. Variations CAN make it more interesting, more on that later.
If it’s an important plot for everyone, then it’s worth the time spent.
BUT.
Spending a long time to repeat the same game week after week just to “determine the winner”, to have that set up an actual in-game result, is either A) a setup or B) ignored. Or C), a diversion.
A setup? If the winner is predetermined, even if only due to a large number of bonuses, then yes, a setup. A lot of time spent toward a predetermined result that could have been summarized in a 1-minute paragraph.
B ignored? If the winner is not predetermined but must be a specific individual in order to move the plot, then yes, ignored.
C diversion? If the GWAG does not significantly impact the plot, then it is a diversion.
Remember that your group gathers to play D&D. Another game, although embedded in D&D, is not what attracted them to the table.
· Games within games cover a wide range. Drinking games and Arm wrestling tend to be the most commonly used.
o GWAGs can be a good way to start a session, as people catch up and/or eat.
o All “games” are the same: set rules, generate randomness, determine result.
· Not D&D
o Players come together to play the D&D game, not a drinking game that uses D&D dice.
o Adding random or enhanced features to a drinking game doesn't make it a better game.
o Drinking games tend to encourage obnoxious ingame behavior. Such behavior usually doesn’t advance the plot, which leads to time issues.
· Time issues
o Sessions have limited time. Be careful not to dominate the D&D time with the drinking game. Set a goal for total duration, including time for the after-party sillies.
o The time for the drinking game is additive when used for several sessions.
· Results
o If the winner of the drinking game is predetermined then the entire system of randomness, the entire drinking game, is false.
§ If the winner is predetermined, use a story instead of spending time at the table rolling dice that don’t matter.
o On the other hand, if randomness is important, consider having one die roll decide the winner.
· Group inclusion
o If the game is not important to the story of everyone, consider having Evan be the only die roller.
§ If this is the case, you could do it away from the table.
§ Other players could be told what happened if they chose to have their characters participate.
o Make participating in the game a choice, not a requirement.
§ A player sitting at a table where everyone else is participating counts as a requirement, even if the PC is not in the game.
§ Being stuck on a boat with nothing to do other than drink counts as a requirement.
· That’s tough when you ARE on a boat. Old school method was to use a world-based perspective, which… took… forever… to… get… anywhere. Roll up random encounters every X miles, it just sucked for long trips and everyone knew it but it was RAW so everyone followed it. More recent method is to include story-significant events, and briefly describe the rest.
· Relevance to plot
o If the game is not important to this week’s story, don’t use up the table time. Summarize it.
o It seems to be leading up to an epic conclusion for Evan specifically. If it doesn’t include everyone, don’t make everyone participate.
o Make the game relevant to the table in significant and important ways.
§ Have the ship be attacked by a sea monster during a game. The drinking chars suffer penalties.
§ Include different benefits or drawbacks depending whether the characters drink or not. Obviously the non-drinkers will have whatever kinds of pros and cons depending on the usual story elements.
· Drinking Pros ideas
o Meet someone new
o Hear about some story element
· Cons ideas
o Don’t have time to prepare all their equipment,
o Have a hangover for the rest of the day.
· Someone doing something else is prepared with their gear when the boarding party hits the boat.
· Check the effects of alcohol and drugs in the various Books of Vile Darkness. The Thieves’ World novels use a drug named K’rrf. Bonuses, Penalties, scaling use and cost, plus addiction and withdrawal are addressed. In mainstream published rulebooks it’s almost universal to have detrimental long-term effects. This is driven by cultural norms and the legal dept. You can find some alternative splatbooks that focus on benefits without drawbacks.
Joel,
I wanted to address the general issue rather than make recommendations for your table specifically, since that’s your domain. Why? Because this comes up in one form or another in EVERY group eventually. But time is getting short, so at the risk of being somewhat blunt I’ll summarize. So this is kind of a mix of general concepts and table-specific thoughts/suggestions.
Before I begin: if using a drinking game or casino-style gambling at your table, consider alcohol and gambling can be real-life touchy subjects. There are a few potentially touchy subjects, for example, domestic abuse or kidnapping, but in Wisconsin you’re most likely to encounter alcohol or gambling. Now, then:
How to run games within games.
Given the tendency of PCs to frequent taverns, drinking games are an ever-popular game-within-a-game (GWAG). Other popular GWAGs are arm-wrestling contests, 3-dragon ante, wizard’s chess, duels by steel or magic, archery contests or festival tournaments. These are great fun when used sporadically. They are less fun when repeated week after week, and do not move the story forward. When you use the same GWAG repeatedly, you run the risk of making the GWAG an easy replacement for actual gaming activities.
The first thing is to consider how much time should be spent on the game.
If it’s basically a poker game that runs every session, then it doesn’t really move the plot forward. It’s a red herring- something that seems to move the plot forward, but is actually not relevant to the plot. This is not necessarily bad. Some good uses for a red herring game would be as a warmup activity while people are eating, or to refocus if people are losing it.
Sometimes the game is important to the plot. If it’s an important plot theme for 1 character, then it’s only moving the plot forward for 1 character. 4 of 5 characters = 20% useful time, 80% not useful. That is, if it’s the same thing week after week. And I don’t mean minor variations, like 1 week it’s whiskey instead of ale. Variations CAN make it more interesting, more on that later.
If it’s an important plot for everyone, then it’s worth the time spent.
BUT.
Spending a long time to repeat the same game week after week just to “determine the winner”, to have that set up an actual in-game result, is either A) a setup or B) ignored. Or C), a diversion.
A setup? If the winner is predetermined, even if only due to a large number of bonuses, then yes, a setup. A lot of time spent toward a predetermined result that could have been summarized in a 1-minute paragraph.
B ignored? If the winner is not predetermined but must be a specific individual in order to move the plot, then yes, ignored.
C diversion? If the GWAG does not significantly impact the plot, then it is a diversion.
Remember that your group gathers to play D&D. Another game, although embedded in D&D, is not what attracted them to the table.
· Games within games cover a wide range. Drinking games and Arm wrestling tend to be the most commonly used.
o GWAGs can be a good way to start a session, as people catch up and/or eat.
o All “games” are the same: set rules, generate randomness, determine result.
· Not D&D
o Players come together to play the D&D game, not a drinking game that uses D&D dice.
o Adding random or enhanced features to a drinking game doesn't make it a better game.
o Drinking games tend to encourage obnoxious ingame behavior. Such behavior usually doesn’t advance the plot, which leads to time issues.
· Time issues
o Sessions have limited time. Be careful not to dominate the D&D time with the drinking game. Set a goal for total duration, including time for the after-party sillies.
o The time for the drinking game is additive when used for several sessions.
· Results
o If the winner of the drinking game is predetermined then the entire system of randomness, the entire drinking game, is false.
§ If the winner is predetermined, use a story instead of spending time at the table rolling dice that don’t matter.
o On the other hand, if randomness is important, consider having one die roll decide the winner.
· Group inclusion
o If the game is not important to the story of everyone, consider having Evan be the only die roller.
§ If this is the case, you could do it away from the table.
§ Other players could be told what happened if they chose to have their characters participate.
o Make participating in the game a choice, not a requirement.
§ A player sitting at a table where everyone else is participating counts as a requirement, even if the PC is not in the game.
§ Being stuck on a boat with nothing to do other than drink counts as a requirement.
· That’s tough when you ARE on a boat. Old school method was to use a world-based perspective, which… took… forever… to… get… anywhere. Roll up random encounters every X miles, it just sucked for long trips and everyone knew it but it was RAW so everyone followed it. More recent method is to include story-significant events, and briefly describe the rest.
· Relevance to plot
o If the game is not important to this week’s story, don’t use up the table time. Summarize it.
o It seems to be leading up to an epic conclusion for Evan specifically. If it doesn’t include everyone, don’t make everyone participate.
o Make the game relevant to the table in significant and important ways.
§ Have the ship be attacked by a sea monster during a game. The drinking chars suffer penalties.
§ Include different benefits or drawbacks depending whether the characters drink or not. Obviously the non-drinkers will have whatever kinds of pros and cons depending on the usual story elements.
· Drinking Pros ideas
o Meet someone new
o Hear about some story element
· Cons ideas
o Don’t have time to prepare all their equipment,
o Have a hangover for the rest of the day.
· Someone doing something else is prepared with their gear when the boarding party hits the boat.
· Check the effects of alcohol and drugs in the various Books of Vile Darkness. The Thieves’ World novels use a drug named K’rrf. Bonuses, Penalties, scaling use and cost, plus addiction and withdrawal are addressed. In mainstream published rulebooks it’s almost universal to have detrimental long-term effects. This is driven by cultural norms and the legal dept. You can find some alternative splatbooks that focus on benefits without drawbacks.
